Orit Farkash Hacohen 

Hi, I'm Orit Farkash, I'm the former Minister of innovation and technology in science of the State of Israel. And at the moment I'm a parliament member in the Knesset. My core value is to make an impact through hard work. 

Michael Eisenberg 

Oriot, thank you for being here. I'm particularly excited to welcome member of Knesset, Orit Farkash Hacohen on Aleph’s investment  podcast. Orit is the former Minister of Innovation, Technology, and Space for the State of Israel and former Minister for Tourism and Strategic Affairs, notably during the Coronavirus, being the head of the Ministry of Tourism - during the Coronavirus -that's quite a role. She previously served as the first female Chair of Israel's Electric Authority. She has also been instrumental, fundamental in Israel's offshore gas exploration and commercialization, and has worked tirelessly to advance tech diplomacy efforts between Israel and the United States, the EU, as well as the Arab world and other countries. Orit holds an LLB from Hebrew University and an MPA from Harvard University. She is married and has four children and lives in Jerusalem. Orit, we're so happy to have you on the show with us. Let's get started. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen 

Sure.

Michael Eisenberg 

How do we know each other?

Orit Farkash Hacohen 

I got to know you through my last position as a Minister of Innovation. And then I was amazed to realize that we're, I don't know, like, nearly neighbors. We were living in the same neighborhood, I think, or area in Jerusalem, and I never met you. You're working hard. I'm working hard. And, you know, in every ministry, I meet some people who are leaders of the industry, and I'm starting to consult with them. And I can say that you were a very good counselor. In many issues, or crossroads that I had, I needed somebody to ask questions and learn from.

Michael Eisenberg 

That's kind of you because I have to also admit that Eitan Eliram who we’re both friendly with, because he also lives in the neighborhood, introduced us, and the first time I came to the meeting with you, you were running late. And I got annoyed. I said this is - can't be worth it. And I started to leave. And you came running after me. And I have to say, I'm glad I did not run out of that office, because the friendship that's developing, the relationship and the work that you've done, has been inspiring. And I'm glad I didn't leave that meeting. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen 

I'm sorry. I apologize. 

Michael Eisenberg 

I know. It's okay. It was my, you know, it was my impatience. I'm glad I didn't leave. Okay. I want to dig in on something. Starting, not at the beginning. With you, I want to start with something I know you worked on towards the end of your term as Minister of innovation, which is Artificial Intelligence. You were partner and party to, I think the meeting was in Paris- if I'm correct- a meeting with the European Union on the role of Artificial Intelligence and AI in society. Can you tell us about that meeting and what your intention was, and the other ministers who were in the room, from around the world?

Orit Farkash Hacohen  

The purpose of the visit to France was actually that Israel would become a member of the GP organization. And I had a meaningful meeting with the minister, the French minister there and the OECD representatives there. In order for Israel to be admitted to this organization, which we did, actually, there has been a little bit of political and international inconvenience with regards to this visit, because it was I would say, it was the - previous to that were the events of the NSO the actions of NSO, the story of NSO, the Israeli company with a -

Michael Eisenberg 

This is one of the offensive cyber companies in Israel that the US government, at some point in Facebook became annoyed with, let's just say. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen  

And it actually shed a light on that visit because, until last minute, I didn't even know if the visit would happen, if I would be able to meet the Minister of Science because the French government had a lot of reservation of letting me as a representative of the high technology and innovation in Israel to meet that ministry. But at the end, we worked hard so that the meeting will take place. And Israel was admitted to GP. And we started progressing the policy and first ever ethical regulation on behalf of the Israeli government on AI.

Michael Eisenberg But why is it important for the government to be involved in AI ethics? Isn't that the role of like university professors, ethicists, religious leaders, and entrepreneurs themselves?

Orit Farkash Hacohen  

I don't think we should leave that to all those factors without any governmental interference, because I think that, as a government, we have an interest. First of all, we want to protect the industry and want to support the industry and a our AI is now a, you know, it's like the engine that changed the whole  technology world, but at the same time, we are committed to certain values, such as privacy, such as not to abuse this technology, such as how to make it in a way that will not discriminate other people's - other AI in decision making processes. And this is what is something that many countries are now dealing with: the United States versus the European community versus Canada, and we had to take a stand on that matter, because Israel is the startup nation or the scale up nation or whatever, is being ranked in those areas. And it was ranked poorly, because the government did not take a stand on these the ethic principles. And that is why it was very important for me to go out and to publish these principles. And I also wanted to make a stand of a moderate position, which is called Chadshanut Achrait 

Michael Eisenberg 

Which means responsible innovation - 

Orit Farkash Hacohen  

Responsible innovation that, on one hand, protects the industry and says that we are committed to only international standards, but at the same time talking about, you know, privacy concerns and being accountable and being transparent, and so on and so on. And also talking about the fact that at this stage, the State of Israel does not believe in creating a specific AI legislation. 

Michael Eisenberg 

Okay, that's an important point. I'm glad you finished with that. So in the conversations we had before you went off to Paris, I asked you the following question. I said, Should Israel be a follower and a joiner of what the EU or the United States is doing within the regulatory framework and the ethical framework for artificial intelligence? Or should we be a leader, as the case may be? What do you think of that now? Should we just be a joiner and just kind of subscribe to international standards? Or do we need to have our own unique and perhaps leading voice or a leadership - voice of leadership on this topic? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen  

That's a very good question. Because I think that this is, indeed, an international topic. And this is not something that Israel can lead on its own without any other partners. And that is why, first of all, I thought that the fact that Israel as a state, as not even a player in that area is, is a big problem - is a blind spot. Having said that, I do think that we should follow international standards, but we should be in the room to voice our concerns with it when it comes to certain concerns of the State of Israel. And we do have certain concerns when maybe - when it comes to security issues with AI involvements. And then I think we should be in the room. And I think that we should lead that. And when we're representing, I don't know, AI issues are relevant to every aspect of life, also to security issues, to political issues, to self defense issues. And I think that in those areas with regards to the State of Israel's, you know, right off of existence, self defense, international interest, I think that we should and we can be a leading voice, because in that area, unfortunately, we have a lot of experience. 

Michael Eisenberg 

Is it only like a national issue, meaning, our defense, our rights, our responsibilities? Or do you think there's something unique about Israeli culture or perspective, not just because of the experience - obviously, we've had on defense issues. But because of how you think about life or society that you think we have, perhaps, a unique opinion on?

Orit Farkash Hacohen   

I think that when it comes to Israelis, I think that we are less sensitive to privacy rights and other rights, because we're so used to being a very disciplined, maybe, I don't know, disciplined people, most of us go to the army, mandatory. We are facing a lot of situations in which, you know, we need to protect ourselves. And sometimes, and we saw that also on the COVID. The COVID also confronted the value, for example, of privacy versus the national concerns. And I think that in that sense, maybe, maybe the Israeli people are more vulnerable to breaches of privacy, as they see themselves as part of a bigger, you know, like a people that - we have all these national security concerns that they are, I think, that they are more lean to be flexible on some issues. And I think that on that level maybe, a role of a minister of innovation- you know, I only started the phase of these they have these regulations. That they, for example, a Minister of Innovation should be the one who raises that voice of privacy and individual protection issues that arises from the use of AI. 

Michael Eisenberg 

Yeah, I think this is an important point, which is, in other words, Israel is a high trust society, and therefore people let their guard down as it relates to privacy. But people playing by other rules, who don't observe the trust in Israeli society, could abuse the individual rights of people. And I guess the question then becomes, you just said right now that it's the job of the Minister of Innovation to get after that problem. One could make the argument that there's - it's not the role of government to do that. But rather, it's the role of the technology companies to do that. And then you have a different problem, which is, we can't control technology companies in the world. So, what do you do? Is this actually solvable? Through the Minister of Innovation raising the concern by coming to international agreements, or, because not everyone in the world is going to be bound by the international agreements, is just not solvable?

Orit Farkash Hacohen    

Actually, it's a very good point. And I think that the whole thing of AI versus regulation, it's like mixing water with oil. You know, I come from the low tech infrastructure world, when regulation or policy government is very defined. And when we're talking about AI, it is so - it's still developing - the pace is very quick. And that is why, for example, we said there is no place for specific legislation. I do not believe in AI legislation. And for your question, I think that there should be a combination of accountabilities by the technology companies, and also a partnership with governments. And that is why we chose what we called a “soft regulation”, let's say, responsible innovation, just only pinpointing the compass, what we think, you know, companies should be accountable, they should be transparent when they use AI, they should be able to explain decisions that were taken by AI mechanism, and so on, and so on and to give all these tools for technology companies to be able to use in order to assess the risks that are involved in AI. But I think that your question is right on. I don't know if we will be able to control it. I don't know if the technology companies can even address the changes that AI brings to the industry. What do you think?

Michael Eisenberg  

I think it's a tough one, I actually admire you for going the “soft regulation” approach. I think the natural tendency in politics today is to go “hard regulation” on a lot of technology. And I think kind of guidance and soft regulation is exactly the right way to go. But I think it's tricky. And I don't think you can really regulate this to the point where you can kind of solve it. My own personal view is, that we need to invest in values conversations, which are not perfect either, obviously, but to try to get people to assume more responsibility and understand the lines between good and bad actors. I think the tricky thing, to your position, which which is in government, is, and this is, you know, this is a conversation about investing in values and technology, is what do you do, you’re a minister in government for argument's sake, and there's a bad actor in another country or another country is a bad actor, in the case of AI? Do you, like, abstain from having relationships with them? Do you do kind of - how do you handle places where technology policy and abuses run amok? Right? And we can have that, the more AI proliferates, and particularly, over time into the battlefield, it's going to be very complicated for how you deal with these kind of bi and multilateral relations with these countries. Would you abstain from having relations with the country on a values basis of how they use technology or let it run? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen    

Actually, you know, it's not a theoretical question. You started from an issue of AI. But, for example, as a minister, we launched a mutual task force between the two governments, the United States and Israel, that started the deliberation on that issue exactly. There is a working group on trusted technologies, because the American administration had some reservation about the Israeli policy of protecting our technologies. Because on one hand, we’re a source of amazing technologies to the whole world. But on the American administration aspect, we need to be more controlling of the use and the export of these technologies. So this issue is not limited only to the AI area. And when we are looking at what's happening now in the world, in the area of China, Iran, Turkey, Ukraine, Russia, then things are very vulnerable and fragile, and we cannot avoid the question of what should be the policy on trusted technologies. And that is why we started that dialogue. Because on one hand, we, as a country, are very committed to not limiting our industry, the Israeli technology industry, and I'm talking about, of course, the civil side and so on. But I think you're absolutely right. I don't think that, in the long run, we will be able to ignore partners who are, you know, who are misusing technology as a policy. I'm not talking about an accident. Yeah, that one company breached something. And there was a mistake, or, maybe something wrong, but I'm talking as a policy. 

Michael Eisenberg   

You mentioned the collaboration with the United States. Is it fair to say that trust and shared values matters more today, because their proliferation and technology, than ever before?

Orit Farkash Hacohen     

That's a very good observation. And I think that the question, roughly, is, yes. But you know, that Israel is a very complicated state, in a very controversial and tough neighborhood.

Michael Eisenberg   

Never noticed. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen     

Yeah, exactly. And we have so many issues, you know, for example, when you're looking at Russia and Ukraine, I mean, we're so happy that we have our own energy resources and so on.

Michael Eisenberg   

We’re gonna talk about that soon. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen     

Yeah. Because Israel is a country that can rely, basically, and should rely on itself. And this is what is our ethos. So in that sense, I think that having said that, that I agree with what you say, we will always have this, you know, little dot, saying everything is subject to our existential challenges. And I hope I'm clear about it. 

Michael Eisenberg   

Yeah, no, that's actually super helpful. Having already mentioned the energy part, I'm gonna segue for a bit. Many people don't know this, but Orit Farkash Hacohen,Minister Orit Farkash Hacohen when she was a civil servant in government is very responsible, together with the government for getting gas out of the ocean, out of the Mediterranean Sea, and into Israel and Israel's energy independence. So much so that when you were the regulator of this, you at some point had to have a security detail around you, because there's a lot of economic interests involved, and they were worried about you. Take me through for a second. And I know you wrote about this in your kind of time at Harvard, as well. Take me through the process of getting the natural gas on the digs in the Mediterranean into Israeli homes, from your perspective.

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

So first of all, I want to be modest about it. And I think that the achievement is of the owners and the entrepreneurs and the business people who jeopardize their money and time to drill and to bring gas to Israel. 

Michael Eisenberg   

100 percent and Yitchak Tchuva and the money that he risked and others is-  it would not have happened without private entrepreneurship, that's for sure.

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

Exactly in their vision and their belief. And, you know, I must be modest in this because I was only the electricity regulator. And my part was to create a supportive business environment for those gas reservoirs to be able to sell their gas to IEC meaning IE the Israeli monopoly- 

Michael Eisenberg   

IEC is the Israel Electric Corporation which is the local monopoly -

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

To the IPP to the private players, to have regulation to put in place so that they will be able to transport the gas into the land of Israel, and others. And I also had a very complex relationship with them, because although we worked very hard for that success to happen, and I think that Israel's having its own gas reservoirs is a major, major strategic success, both domestically, but nevertheless, also on the strategic side, with a relationship with Egypt with Jordan, and we'll talk about it later. But I had a very complex relationship with them, because I also went into some conflicts with them. I argued about the details of the gas contract with the prices that they sold the gas to the Israeli consumers, but I really, really admired what they do. And this is something that is totally an amazing achievement, that they have enabled the State of Israel. I think that when I'm looking today, first of all, I think that it is an amazing thing that Israel has the diverse source of energy, natural gas resources, solar resources, and that we are totally energetic, dependent - 

Michael Eisenberg   

Independent. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

Independent. I think that the fact that we can export gas to either Egypt today, and also to Jordan is a major strategic tool to the State of Israel. And the fact that we have Israeli representatives from our gas company sitting, for example, I think only last week or a few days ago, there was a big international conference in Egypt, with the shell representatives and other majors and you know, and Israeli representatives, this is totally not less than an amazing thing. And I think that what we're lacking - 

Michael Eisenberg   

The land flowing with milk and honey needed a miracle to find gas. And that didn't bring…. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

But I think that what we need to improve is the implementation of to bring the gas into the industrial sector in Israel, in that we are truly lacking  for years we're talking about it - 

Michael Eisenberg   

Why are we lacking?

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

Because of bureaucracy. Because of the fact that the Israeli governmental companies that are supposed to build the pipelines in the infrastructure, and the connections between the Israeli, you know, different industry and to transfer them into using gas, is just - is delaying the reform that was done in that aspect is not as successful as we thought. And there are major efforts that the government is doing in the last few years with regards to that. 

Michael Eisenberg   

So we're living in an inflationary environment. Now, Israel's inflation rate is better than the US and certainly better than the EU at this point. A lot of that has to do with energy independence. Is that fair? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

Yes, I would say that, some of it. 

Michael Eisenberg   

And you mentioned the strategic benefits of the energy independence before and the regional agreements to bring energy to our neighboring countries. We bring water to Jordan, we bring now gas energy. Yet at the same time- well, I'll ask it this way-

Michael Eisenberg     

It's funny, we're trying to have a serious conversation about gas and artificial intelligence. And because it's Tel Aviv, the Bohemian capital of Israel, I guess. So right out our window here is somebody with vans and, you know, booming speakers on the top of his van, and he got out in the middle to straighten his dancing. So the music you hear in the background is just Tel Aviv. And so what I was trying to say is, you know, inflation is in better shape, partially because of the gas. But what I'm really interested in is, you mentioned the private entrepreneurs, you mentioned the importance of regulation, you mentioned the regional cooperation. But, in these conversations, where you’re negotiating the price down to the last shekel, or penny, and you're thinking about the strategic, didn't anyone sit around and say: Okay, what are kind of the values that are guiding this decision? What are we trying to get out of this? Obviously, there's the strategic benefits - Actually that’s a bad question. Let's scratch that question. I'm gonna change the question. I'll ask the question backwards. The other way. When you're having the conversations in the room about the impact on the economy, right? And you're having these conversations on energy independence, and a lot of these are kind of heated conversations I’m certain, because we're measuring financial models at the end of the day, and at the same time, you're mentioning the strategic importance, the energy independence, what takes precedence in these conversations? Because you can be willing to give up some shekels in order to get energy independence. So what leads the conversation? Is it the money that the government can make? Is it the money that the entrepreneurs can make? Or is it kind of the core values of the state at that time? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

This is actually a great question, because I think that the whole issue of energy in Israel basically raises to the surface a conflict. When we're having governmental discussions about energy policy in Israel, there will always be the voice of the money, and there will always be the voice of the strategic benefits. And you know, when I was holding the position of the electricity regulator, I was voicing the voice of the money of the pockets of the Israeli citizens, that I didn't want them to overpay for the gas. But when the - but now that I changed sides, and I went into the government as a minister, when you're taking a ministerial decision or a Cabinet decision, you are balancing all the considerations. You can ask the same question about the last agreement that we had done with Lebanon with regards to the border, the territory of the border, regarding the dispute on the gas reservoirs between Israel and Lebanon. Everybody could argue that it wasn't the best decision taking account only the financial risks and the fact that we gave up some of the disputed areas, and Lebanon got something else. But on the other hand, when it comes to gas, we are always thinking about geopolitical consequences and about the stability and what it gives Israel as a state. And the same thing was here, when the development of these reservoirs was jeopardized, or postponed, we all as a government, including myself, as a regulator, put aside a lot of our fiscal concerns about maybe the money and the prices. And we all sat together, we said, first of all, we're going to give them certainty, we want these reservoirs to be drilled. And once we have the gas out of the water, then we can start and discuss the fiscal issues and so on. Because the energetic security issue for the State of Israel is acute. And we saw that in the Arab Spring, in 2012, when there was a revolution in Egypt, a citizen uprising, if you remember, the first thing that was hit was Israel's gas supply by the Egyptians. We were in a very big crisis for a year and a half. The State of Israel did not get gas supply. We were, you know, we were in, like, an emergency state.

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Michael Eisenberg       

First of all the ministers referenced before to the Lebanese border dispute is that there was a, somewhat of a border dispute, of a border that ran either to the right or the left of a new natural gas find, and basically decided in Solomonic terms to split the baby in some way and also bring in a foreign energy company, Total, from France, as the previous reference- 

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Orit Farkash Hacohen       

I mean, press, Michael! 

Michael Eisenberg       

I'm trying to do my work as best I can, and the agreement was done. I wouldn't say hastily, but it was done with very energetic American negotiation by Amos Hochstein who also grew up in the neighborhood, by the way, we should say, and who was President Biden's representative to this. I'm very curious about something you kind of said in passing before. What you basically said as you paraphrased, Ariel Sharon's famous line: “things you see from here, you don't see from there.” And you said, when I was the regulator, what I was focused on was making sure that the Israeli consumer got low energy prices. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

No, fair energy prices. 

Michael Eisenberg       

Fair energy prices, right. Fair energy prices, you're right, fair energy prices. But when I became a minister, I needed to be concerned with other considerations. So you switched sides of the table on some level or you switched positions, and your perspective had to change. Was that difficult? I mean, you invested your heart and soul for years as a regulator. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

No, I'll rephrase what I said. Although I agree with what you said. I still think that my position as an electricity regulator was the right one. Because I do think that with a gas deal anyways, it's a different story, should have balanced the interest in such a way that it should have taken care of a better indexation formula for the Israeli consumers. Because at the time we were facing a gas monopoly. And that was a very complicated situation to be as a state. But I think that being a minister, you do see a broader perspective. What didn't change is nothing, in my perspective, didn't change the fact that whenever I took a decision as the minister, or in the government, it was still very, very important for me, and until this very day, to hear the professionals, to hear the experts, the administration people. Because I think that they know best. They are the people on the details, they know the details, it is their profession. And I truly believe in hearing lot of professional opinions before you take a decision, because it improves the process of decision making. But at the end of the day, sure, yeah, sure. Take, for example, the climate issue. Israel, cannot afford to be 100% solar, for example. I mean, at that stage, specifically, because we have other considerations, because of our security threats. We need to have diverse resources of energy, and so on and so on. Israel is not connected. It's an energetic Island. We're not - we don't have a backup from Europe, or from our neighbors. We're totally isolated in this sense. 

Michael Eisenberg       

Yeah if what happened to Ukraine happened to us or Germany, if what happened to Germany just now happened to us, there'd be nobody filling our tanks with natural gas. And so we need that - 

Orit Farkash Hacohen       

Exactly. 

Michael Eisenberg       

And one of these I find funny when you say that right now is, when I was a kid, and I came to visit Israel for the first time, the thing that absolutely struck me were these panels on people's roofs with the little white kind of towers or containers on top of everyone's roof where they made hot water out of solar energy. I'd never seen it - I grew up in New York, in Manhattan. I'd never ever in my life seen a solar panel until I came to Israel. And so Israel in my mind was way ahead on solar energy. And you fast forward now 40 years later, from the first time I came to Israel, and we're still very advanced in solar energy. But there's actually no way we can take that revolution. That early on, I don’t know if it was a revolution, that it was a necessity back then, the kind of solar powered hot water. We can't take it to the extreme because we need varied sources of energy. How do you think of our place in, like, the world of what they call renewables or solar and wind? And there's obviously wind turbines and the Golan Heights. Does that actually matter to us?

Orit Farkash Hacohen        

Actually it does, and, actually, it's a very interesting question, because when it comes to climate challenges, when I was a minister of innovation, I went back to the energy area which I come from, from a different perspective. We passed a very big cabinet resolution that was pushed forward by the Prime Minister Naftali Bennett at the time, and it was written. I led the cabinet resolution. It was the joint resolution of how Israel will harness the high tech industry in order to address the climate change in the world. And I think that Israel can have an amazing added value. And to take a leadership position in the areas of climate, if we're talking about you know about, the meat industry, if we're talking about the food aspect, if we're talking about renewable energy storage technologies, and so on. This is an opportunity for Israel to excel and to widen its industry, and to be a world leader, not only in cyber and other areas. And we really put very strict targets and aiming so that the Israeli high tech industry will develop and become a world leader in those aspects.

Michael Eisenberg       

I'm going to stop you for one second because I want to ask: why should we care? Like, we're this little country. Like I mentioned before, solar energy was here very early compared to the rest of the world. But we have solar farms in the south, they’re, well I don't know what they produce, a few percentage points of Israel's energy needs. We're never going to be clean. Gas is much cleaner than coal, obviously. And I don't think so, so, in that way, we're a lot better. But like, why should we care about this as a country?

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

I think that we should all care about having the world a better place. And we, as Israel, we are a state that we see ourselves as a state that you, you know, also be an example of a modern and an amazing country. I think it has to do with the understanding that we do need to be a player in that challenge. I think that the only problem that we have is that we need to keep our diverse resources because of our existential problem. Exactly. But when we're talking about the government policy, it is absolutely there. The compass is going to more and more and more renewable energies. Now, the problem is that we don't have hydro, we don't have a lot of, you know, offshore winds. We don't- we cannot really focus on things that are other than solar. And I think that in those areas our added value is totally the technology. And we can be, you know, why do we send our military people to Turkey when we had an earthquake? Why do we help other countries in Africa with our physicians? Because I think that part of our ethos is to do the Tikkun Olam and to be part of the problems and to be part of the solution. 

Michael Eisenberg       

So I want to tie your answer together with something you said before, and then ask hard questions. So you said before, of course, we had to be part of this AI convention. And we should bring our own unique perspective to it. Because we have a unique perspective here. On the ethos, we have our own unique challenges on them. You said we needed to commit to the Climate Change Proposal, not because tiny Israel would matter. But it's a message that we have to be part of the world and make the world a better place, what you called “Tikkun Olam”.And do our part either with technology or, you know, with our own small, renewable energy. And obviously, getting the gas out of the ground is a big deal. In terms of climate change. And when you were minister, and you tied it together, interestingly, when sending the relief mission to Turkey, now, to get people out of the rubble. We sent relief missions to Haiti, and to Miami, and then you tied it together sending doctors to Africa. And this is already a worldview. It's a philosophy at this point, which is not just about national security, it's about national influence, and doing national influence through what you were saying, doing the right thing in the family of nations. And, where does that come from? Like, I don't think most people say okay, we have to send a relief mission to Turkey, because it's important for us to have a positive influence in the family of nations and doctors, and this is going on all the time, right? This amazing unit led by Golan Vach, right? That goes and takes people out of rubble in Surfside in Florida and Haiti, and in Turkey, now, it's been all over the world. This is now a philosophy, but where does it come from? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Maybe it comes from the core in the DNA of the birth of this country and what we, as the people, went through. You know, the idea, first of all, for me personally, to be a public servant is to do the right thing and to have a positive impact on us and on other countries. I think that Israel is kind of a miracle, such an amazing, small country, people do not realize how small, geographically, we are. I mean, most people that we know do not know that, but we have amazing abilities in terms of technology and developments. And we see ourselves as a country that wants to help other people that are in distress. You know, again, we are not apologizing for having a Jewish state, and we are very firm in our standing here in the Holy Land, as a national house of the Jewish people. But, sure, building on that we want to help, and I think maybe it has to do with the Jewish DNA of doing good and assisting and I think it's also a human values. I mean, I don't think it’s - I mean, I never asked myself that question. Imust - 

Michael Eisenberg       

That's what I'm here for, to ask these questions - 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

I must tell, you know, it's like, for like innovation diplomacy, you know, one of the things that I wanted to push forward, and we started, we launched work together with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, is to map these deprived countries and how we, as the State of Israel, can go over and improve their quality of life through our technology. 

Michael Eisenberg       

That's amazing, by the way - 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Yeah. So it started, but I don't know, you know, the government changed. So - 

Michael Eisenberg       

We tend to do that a lot here, right? It's changing the government. But that's amazing. You worked with the Foreign Minister in actually mapping countries, and then mapping technologies against those countries where, we could help out those countries - 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

We launched, like a task force for them to prepare a plan. Yeah, for sure. 

Michael Eisenberg       

That's amazing, actually. So I want to take that observation and go to another area you worked on, which is computational and synthetic biology. Which I know the work started under you. And as you know, we just brought on an entrepreneur in residence here at Aleph. His name is Dan Davidi, who we brought back from the United States. He had been at Harvard Medical School, where he set up the synthetic biology lab, and then worked at Amazon in San Diego, and he landed back here a month ago. In some level, in response to your efforts and efforts I was working on separately around computational synthetic biology. Take me through where the previous philosophy we talked about, which is, we need to have our impact on the world and do it in a responsible way meets synthetic biology and computational biology, and where Israel should play there? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Again, I think this is one of the areas that me as the minister, we defined it as the national technological priority area, that should be pushed forward, in the sense that this is the next step of, I think, everything. Of medicine, of progressive solutions to the human problems. And again, I think it's part of the vision of Tikkun Olam. 

Michael Eisenberg       

I want to switch topics entirely right now. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

I want to talk a little bit about what we did on the social gaps -

Michael Eisenberg       

That’s exactly where I'm coming to right now. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Yes. 

Michael Eisenberg       

So, I'm going to start with a different question to head in there. The - you work very hard. I've seen you at all hours of the day, working very hard, and doing meetings. And you said that was a core value of yours, work hard to have impact. The Prime Minister of New Zealand, who's 29, and has zero children to the best of my knowledge, and you have four children to the best of my knowledge, correct? And a busy life. She stepped down because of burnout, she said, without speaking negatively about the President or Prime Minister of New Zealand, maybe it's the younger generation? I don't know. But, do you ever get burnout?

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Sure. 

Michael Eisenberg        

You do. And what do you do when you get burnt out? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Actually, I was so - I really wanted to watch that announcement of that Prime Minister woman, I wanted to listen to her. And I was really passionate about finding her resignation announcement. And I could relate to many things that she has done. I've always worked very hard. And this is not something that can be done without a supportive spouse and husband and supportive parents. And they were there for me, my parents, specifically when I had very young children. You cannot do it without being in love with what you do, and - 

Michael Eisenberg        

It’s important to have supportive young grandparents for the kids, right? So that they can help out. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Exactly. Because my brother was a physician, got married very late, and he missed that opportunity to have grandparents that are very present for them. I mean, can babysit. 

Michael Eisenberg        

It's more than just babysitting. They become a force in the kid's life, right? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Yes. It's like my mother says, your kids are bringing up themselves. There are a few advantages and disadvantages. But, I must tell you that the last - I've been a minister for the last three years, and there has been some period when I was truly exhausted, because in Israel, we experienced five elections, six waves of COVID. And all of that in three years. And this is - it's crazy. 

Michael Eisenberg        

It is crazy. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

There was government - there were big chaotic events that flooded the whole world. I mean, the waves of COVID, the vaccination, there was a COVID a cabinet in the government that was 24/7 on the go. And, you know, being the Minister of Tourism is one of the most industries that suffered the most. The tourism industry almost collapsed in the times of the COVID. It is our luck that Israel is not very dependent on tourism. It has the high tech industry and it has other industries and we came out in the last - you were talking about inflation, it is not only the gas that made us being relatively with the low rates of inflation and interest, it is mostly because we went out of the COVID as a very strong economy with a very good performance and taxes, and incomes, and the growth and so on. And, so yes, there is a burnout.

Michael Eisenberg        

You know, your kids went through this insanity with you, right? And, thank God there's Shabbat in the middle of it. You can kind of take a half of a breath. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

It's a lifesaver. 

Michael Eisenberg        

The Sabbath is a lifesaver. Was it hard for your kids? And I know they're teenagers already. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

Even more, I have a 25 year old five year old girl in the army. I think that they went through a process when I became the regulator of the Electricity Authority, the energy  authority, the whole household was committed, they all said, well, mommy's doing something very important. And we all need to support her. When I went back to politics, there were very mixed feelings. My children opposed it, firmly. They thought, I'm doing a big mistake, because they thought it's bad for my health, and bad for my peace of mind and for my quality of life. And my husband was the one who pushed me to try and, you know, have impact on the political level. And I must tell you, that as the regulator, my conclusion was that if you want to really make an impact, you should be on the political level. And now, I feel like, as I become more a public figure, they are having the opposite effect. I don't think they tell anyone what I do. They don't tell what they are. They hate it when - they don't talk about politics. But they follow very closely what's happening. So.

Michael Eisenberg        

So I want to finish this part of the conversation. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

I apologize for them. 

Michael Eisenberg        

Kids should make their own decisions, and we hope they’d be supportive of their parents choices, but sometimes they're not. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen          

But I think they're having quite interesting experiences. For example, a few weeks ago, my oldest son came just to take the car, you know, so he came to pick up the car, and he went inside the kitchen to take the keys. And then he sees on my dinner table Benny Gantz and Gadi Eisenkot, and he said, “Oh, I just came to pick up the car keys. Hi, hi, nice meeting you.” So you know, they have their own experiences. And I think it's not too bad. 

Michael Eisenberg        

Those are two former Chiefs of General Staff in Israel. And now current politicians in the blue and white party that Orit Farkash Hacohen  is part of. I want to go on to what I believe is actually your signature moment in politics, at least in my view. Because I think it really brings together the values and the importance of how we think about the future. So you commissioned David Perlmutter, the former CEO of Intel, Israel, to work on diversity in tech in the workplace. Diversity is a bit of a loaded word these days, but this is really what I would call socioeconomic diversity in tech in Israel. Tell us about that decision, what you did and what you learned in the process.

Orit Farkash Hacohen           

So Israel is actually in - was in a turning point when it comes to the high tech industry. The high tech Israeli industry went through a huge leap in the last three, four years, I would say. 

Michael Eisenberg        

But still, only about 350,000 of the nine and a half million people in this country work in the tech ecosystem in total. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen            

Yeah, but it also depends how you count and we will talk about that as well. But when I came to the ministry, I knew what every Israeli knows. I was - that it also reflects a very big social gap in the State of Israel. I remember the moment when the token fell.

Michael Eisenberg        

When the nickel dropped, in English it’s when the nickel dropped.

Orit Farkash Hacohen            

Yes, when the nickel dropped, sorry, sorry. So one of the employees in the ministry just presented the slide. And the slide showed what are the odds of a 17 year old boy from each city in the state of Israel, to become a technology person or to be - to go into the high tech industry. And that graph or that diagram, told the whole story. And you could see that the high tech industry in Israel is all located in Tel Aviv, in certain areas and the dots that were outside of the whole thing, where people, Israelis, from the ultra orthodox society, women, were at the bottom of the least, underrepresented. You could see Israel from the periphery of Israel. And that is indeed a big problem. And that is why we I mean, I took a -

 Orit Farkash Hacohen             

And when I saw that problem, I decided to create a strategic process on behalf of the government. And I appointed David Perlmutter, the former Vice President of Intel, the international Intel company, and I appointed him to be the head of a task force, that for the first time in the State of Israel, put around one table, all the stakeholders that are relevant to the issues of how do we create a more inclusive industry in the state of Israel. So the task force was represented by the Ministry of Finance people, people from my ministry, the Ministry of innovation, people from the innovation authority, also my ministry, people from Israel Bank Research Department, people from the Ministry of Education, people from AfaT 

Afat is the National Defense Technology arm of the Ministry of Defense. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

Exactly, because the army and the Defense Ministry is also relevant because so much of our high tech industry stems from our technological abilities in the military. And we had all these people sitting around the table, and you would not believe it, Michael, for the first time, they sat together with Vatat, also, the Higher Education Committee Council, and private sector representatives, and they all came up with a plan. How until 2030, what should be the Israeli policy in order to bring in more women, more Israeli from the periphery, more Arab into this industry, and more ultra orthodox, and they came up with a plan. And we turned all of that into a cabinet resolution that was also harnessing like six ministries. And we set targets which I also set to the innovation authorities. 

Michael Eisenberg        

Critically important, you said actually, numerical quantitative targets. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

Yeah, it was basically to reduce, I mean, roughly speaking, wouldn't go really into the exact numbers on every segment. But it was roughly to decrease by 50%, these gaps, by doing all kinds of activities, starting as early as the school elementary school. And one of the highlights of that, which is something that I'm very proud of, is that we launched a program called high tech class, that I launched together with the Minister of Education Yifat Shasha-Biton that already started last year. 

Michael Eisenberg        

Fast implementation for the government. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

Yeah, very, when I brought the General Director to my ministry, I told her, this is your first priority project. This is what I want you to deal with. And it worked. And we started a plan in which by five years from now, every Israeli child, no matter where he lives, no matter where he is, in the periphery, or in Tel Aviv, will learn a high tech skills and will be exposed to this world, and to the wide elements of relevance to agriculture, climate, medical, because technology is everywhere. This is the future. It's already here. It's not even the future. And to start -

Michael Eisenberg        

This is an important point, which is, it's not like high tech code software. It's how high tech also meets or technology and coding and software meets different industries. Agriculture or different areas, agriculture, health, energy, software. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

Telecommunication, everything. You can be a child, and what I think is that they're lacking the understanding. And we started already with a pilot in a few hundred eighth grades. Yeah. And then the K children a few thousand of them. 

Michael Eisenberg        

A few thousand Kindergarten children. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

Yes. And when I came, and we started in the periphery, and the program - 

Michael Eisenberg        

Where? In the South in the North? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

Both.  South, the North, in Arab villages, for example, in a city like Ashdod. Which is not such a, you know, extreme periphery. 

Michael Eisenberg        

It's the fourth largest city in Israel. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But I must tell you something - 

Michael Eisenberg        

Below social mobility. 

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Orit Farkash Hacohen             

I came to visit kids, eighth graders in Ashdod, after two weeks of having that program. And when I came into the school in Ashdod where I grew up, I asked the teachers, what do the kids say? What is the feedback that you're getting on this high tech class program? Which I want to tell you again, it will be mandatory, not extra curriculum.

So the teacher told me that one of the students, one of the boys told them, “how can we study in Ashdod, high tech, isn't it something for people from - kids from Tel Aviv and kids from- And that is exactly the purpose of the program. It was to make every kid in Israel believe that this is relevant for him, and also to touch on the girls that we know that very early in age they are getting- drifting away from these areas. 

Michael Eisenberg        

What do you think? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

I just told you they will keep on this program. 

Michael Eisenberg        

You and me both. What do you think about, it is about you that drove you to do this? What is it about Orit that drove you to do this? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

What made me do that? 

Michael Eisenberg        

Yeah. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen             

I think that the fact that- 

Michael Eisenberg        

When I first met you - I mean you’re already started talking about, alright? So what is it about Orit-

Orit Farkash Hacohen              

I think that the fact that I come from a very strong professional background, shaped a lot of my, let's say, political figure, because when we're talking about what I did, the climate cabinet, the climate process, the AI regulation, the education program. I looked at it - I mapped the strategic blind spots that we have, and launched things that are long term.

Michael Eisenberg        

But why do you care?

Orit Farkash Hacohen               

It's amazing, no? To - 

Michael Eisenberg        

I agree it’s  amazing but, why you? Like, there have been 10 people in this job beforehand. 20 people in this job and nobody did it. Why do you do it? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen               

This is why I do it. I mean, why? Why, other than that? I mean, why would be the reason to go to politics. I don't see any reason to suffer the loss of privacy. You know, all the risks that are- that you take when you go into this swamp, that is called politics. All the compromises that you have to do. I think the only benefit is to make a good impact on your country and your-

Michael Eisenberg         

I know but everyone does it- 

Orit Farkash Hacohen               

My engine- 

Michael Eisenberg         

I mean, should I ask your parents? I mean, who should I ask to find out why it was Orit who did this? Ten people had this job versus people who had this job. Nobody focused on this. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                

Yes. And I can tell you something that is very personal. I feel that in politics, there is not a reward to being committed to being very professionally effective. And to do these long term things. Most of the ministers, they come, they want quick wins. They are telling themselves in a year I'm not here, because it takes a while to build infrastructure. And I don't look at it this way. And I think that if we had more people that either come from the private sector, Michael, I'm inviting, you-

Michael Eisenberg           

No too many favors. Thank you.

Orit Farkash Hacohen                 

I think that we could have a big impact. And by the way, this educational program made me very emotional. When I came to the school in Ashdod, I was, like, pinching myself. I said, I can't believe it's happening. I can't believe it's happening. And this is something that you can do, truthfully, only by being a minister and pushing forward such big processes. 

Michael Eisenberg           

I'm glad you did it. All right, this is our rapid round of questions to finish up. What's the biggest- what's the problem in the world that you most want to fix?

Orit Farkash Hacohen                 

In the world? 

Michael Eisenberg           

it could be in Israel too. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                 

So, ask me about Israel. 

Michael Eisenberg           

Okay, what's the problem, in Israel, you most want to fix?

Orit Farkash Hacohen                   

The polarization of our society. 

Michael Eisenberg           

You think, by the way, that's inevitable because of the internet and AI? Or is it something else, or politics today? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                   

No, I think that we, as the leadership, are taking a lot of the blame by not being able to set a better example. 

Michael Eisenberg           

That's amazing. I’ll tell you a personal story of my daughter, Tamar, my oldest daughter sent a letter to  Tzipi Hotovely when she was a young- she's now Israel's ambassador to the UK and she was a young member of Knesset. And my daughter saw fighting in the Knesset one day, people yelling at each other and screaming. And she was, I think a high schooler, my daughter, and she said, how do you expect kids to act if this is the way the leaders act? And Tzii Hotovely read the letter from the floor of the Knesset, Israel's parliament. And so that resonates a lot.

Orit Farkash Hacohen                     

We have, of course, the problems of AI, you know, in the social platforms, but it cannot- It cannot be an excuse, I think. 

Michael Eisenberg           

What makes you human and vulnerable? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                     

Invulnerable? 

Michael Eisenberg           

No, and vulnerable.

Orit Farkash Hacohen                       

Caring? 

Michael Eisenberg           

Caring. How do you want to be remembered at the end? Yeah, what does it mean to be caring? Why does that make you human and vulnerable, caring? As the ambulance siren is going off. Okay, what makes you human and vulnerable?

Orit Farkash Hacohen                         

Caring. 

Michael Eisenberg           

What about caring, what does that mean? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                         

I take everything to the heart. I'm like a soul player? 

Michael Eisenberg           

Yeah. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                         

So whenever I want to push something forward, I really - I put all my energy in that and it's actually very exhausting.

Michael Eisenberg             

Probably exhausts some other people too. So how do you want to be remembered at the end of your life?

Orit Farkash Hacohen                           

As a good person. 

Michael Eisenberg             

As a good person. And when somebody writes the biography of Orit Farkash Hacohen in 100 years, what's the title gonna be? 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                           

Oh, I would say full of energy. But, you know, when I started my career, there was a big profile article about me. And the title was Hashmanit O Shma Orit. 

Michael Eisenberg             

. Hashmanit O Shma Orit means- 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                           

It's like the film- 

Michael Eisenberg             

It’s like electrifying and her name is Orit. I don't know what the film is. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                           

It’s a paraphrase on a film. 

Michael Eisenberg             

I don't know which film it is. I don't watch movies. Yeah, full of energy. That's actually a good description. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                           

Yeah. 

Michael Eisenberg             

Orit, thank you for coming. I know you need to get back to your busy day and busy week and very busy life. So thank you for coming. Thank you to your husband for pushing you into politics. And, hopefully we'll have a Shabbat meal in the neighborhood with the kids. And so, if you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us five stars on Spotify, Apple, Stitcher, and wherever you listen to your podcast. You can find Orit Farkash Hacohen on Twitter at @farkashoritwhere she tweets mostly in Hebrew, but Twitter has a translation function. She's also active on LinkedIn and Facebook. Orit, thank you for joining us today. It was fantastic. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                           

Thank you, Miceal, thank you. 

Michael Eisenberg             

And thank you for your service to the people. 

Orit Farkash Hacohen                           

My first podcast, I think. 

Michael Eisenberg             

Amazing! Thanks for being here.

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