Barak Herscowitz: 

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Back then I was really afraid that TikTok would hunt me down and sue me.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Did you get any threats? 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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From TikTok? 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Yeah? 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Um…

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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When we started this podcast, Invested, I wanted to explore how people's values influence their economic decisions. I met Barak Herscowitz–although I'd heard his name before–I met him after he began to Tweet about what he was learning about TikTok, and what was going on there, and how content moderation, and what was getting out on TikTok, was influencing the discourse in the West. How it was so pro-Hamas, and pro-Houthi, and everything else.

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And then Barak basically put his job on the line because of his values. He put his job on the line and called out nefarious behavior at TikTok and in their policies, at great personal risk–financial risk and personal risk. And I thought it was very important that his story be told in this context of that trade off between professional success, financial gain, professional opportunity, and the values that he holds dear. And in the war since October 7th, if one thing has become clear, that if we don't put our values first, the West, Israel, and other places, we’re going to end up in a bad place.

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I think Barak is a great example of what it is to put your values first, how we can tell that story to the West and what we can do in order to promote these values globally. 

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I'm super excited to have Barak Herscowitz with me out here today for the next episode of invested. Welcome, Barak. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Thanks for inviting me.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Barak Herscowitz is a former government and public sector vertical leader at TikTok Israel, and a former advisor to former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett. 

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Welcome, Barak. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Hi. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Tell us your core value.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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I am a huge advocate for liberty, personal liberties. And you know, I never thought about core values or liberty until I spent a few years in the United States. And then I went to Cuba for a trip, and it was such an interesting experience.

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And somehow, I found a cab driver who took me around, me and a few other friends. He took us on a trip around the island in Cuba, and then he mentioned that he wants to send his daughter to the United States, and he teaches her English and he wants her to be ready to go to the United States.

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I don't know if it's still the case, but back then they would send kids on, you know, it's like pirate boats, basically. It was very dangerous. Many people would die on the way, or would get caught, or whatever. And we asked him, “Why would you want to send her on such a dangerous trip to the United States? I mean, things look fine here. Things are okay.” 

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And he said that for him, his daughter is like a very precious little bird. And a little bird in a cage can never fully enjoy life, what life has to offer, and he wants her to be in the States even though it's obviously what he sees as America is an unrealistic image. But he wanted her to have all the opportunities to fail, or to succeed. That changed me very much, and I think my core value is freedom. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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What does liberty or freedom mean to you? Define it. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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I heard something interesting on the Bari Weiss podcast recently. And she said that freedom is the right to say, when you see something that is incorrect; when you see the lie triumphs over the truth, for example, freedom is to be able to say “Not in my name. You can do whatever you want–not in my name. I wouldn't take part in this thing that I don't agree with.” So freedom is the ability to navigate your life in the way that you feel that is right, I guess. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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What if your personal freedom interferes with somebody else's freedom, or some other group's freedom? How do we deal with that?

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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It's always hard. There are smarter people than me throughout history that discuss those questions and maybe have some answers. Generally speaking, people need to think, what if they were on the other side? And it might be easier for them to decide then.

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Michael Eisenberg:

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You know, that's like the famous statement of Hillel the Elder, one of the great Jewish sages, right? What you hate, don't do unto other people. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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It's true. 

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Michael Eisenberg:

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What would anger you, don't do unto other people. I still think like in modern society, we've come to a point where people, so to speak, very individual freedoms or taste buds or whatever it is, can often threaten a larger collective of people. And for myself, I find myself struggling with this notion of what has become individual freedom, which is not like you talked about the guy from Cuba, which is, “Hey I want my my daughter to be able to get out of the cage and experience,” but it's using–for example, what's going on in America right now. 

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You know, people disrupting college graduations, a small group of people disrupting college graduations, which is the kind of the biggest day of many people's lives, when they're graduating college. And so they're expressing their individual freedom, but it's at the expense of many others. Or the encampments on college campuses today, which is my individual freedom, so to speak, to keep other people out.

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Barak Herscowitz:

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I think it's a very easy case, because colleges, universities are supposed to be the place where you listen to different opinions, different facts, different theses, right? And then you decide what's right for you. You spark a process of thinking, and then you decide what you take from each professor, or each colleague, or each friend.

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And, when one group or one individual denies you from access to the discourse, to knowledge, to being on campus physically, I think it's a very easy case.

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 Michael Eisenberg: 

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Why? But if they're exercising their individual freedom–first, they don't want to hear other opinions, and they want to make sure that you can't get access to those quote unquote dangerous opinions. So why is that not exercising…?

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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You can speak up and say whatever you want. You can speak up, you can express whatever fringe idea that you have. But if you actively prevent people from going to–you know, what happened in Columbia is that Jewish students and Jewish professors were instructed to stay at home. This is crazy! So once you prevent people from being a part of this discussion and access to knowledge, I think, yeah, it's a very simple case.How do you think we can change the tide there with the young Americans and their perspective? 

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 Michael Eisenberg: 

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I don't think it's just about young Americans, for what it's worth. I think it's a general malaise of the West where, we've lost the confidence as multiculturalism kind of set in, and universities were taken over by a lot of these DEI departments. And we began to identify people, not by what they think, but by some external characteristic. We began to lose the confidence that the values of the West are better.

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They lead to more innovation, they lead to more freedom. They lead to more prosperity for humankind. And they actually galvanize people to do amazing things. And I think the first thing we have to get back is the optimism about the future of western values. I think that's something we should teach, and we should insist on that. This system is actually a better system for prosperity, and human flourishing, and that freedom is a cardinal right of people. 

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Iran is not a free society today. Russia is not a free society. China is not a free society. Gaza is certainly not a free society. People live under the threat of death and violence all the time. It's like, we were talking about before, this notion of human rights. Going to quote “queers for Palestine” where they wouldn't last one day in Gaza

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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It’s the most ridiculous thing.  

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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But it's emblematic. It shouldn't be taken as a joke, because it's emblematic of deep confusion. And I think every few decades, these kind of, some of these Marxist notions show up in the West. But it's important to just state very clearly that we think this system is better. They're free to live with their system if they'd like to in China.

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That should not penetrate the Western system. I think the other thing is kids. I think the decline of what's gone on in Western society has to do with the decline in demographics, and the decline in childbirth. And I think people are more optimistic about the future when they have kids. One of the amazing things about Israel is how many children there are here.

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And that makes us more optimistic, it causes us to invest in the future. And it forces us to teach our values, because we have to teach them to our children. And I think, by the way, that's an incredible insight of the Torah, which spends a lot of time saying, “Teach it to your kids,” even in the Shema prayer, right?

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It's, “teach it to your kids.” And I think that reinforces our own certainty that these values that you opened with, by the way, which is liberty and freedom, are so foundational. And it's the foundation of the U.S. Constitution. It comes to the foundation of the Bible. It comes to the beginning of Western, civilization in Greece. And I think we have to insist on those topics and that we need to be unabashedly, unabashedly outspoken about them, and tell our kids that they're better. 

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This will be a good segue to a topic I want to spend a lot of time on, which is TikTok and your incredible bravery and freedom that you expressed there.

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Before we get there–what was it like working for the Prime Minister, Prime Minister Bennett? 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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It was great. So I started as his campaign manager, when he ran for office. which was very hectic and very interesting. And then I joined the Prime Minister's office, and I was sort of like the spokesperson of the government for COVID.

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Every message that the government had wanted to deliver to the public was under my supervision. I thought it was a great experience. And, especially with Naftali Bennett, he's done something very interesting that not many people know, that I thought was very unique and very different than other politicians, and maybe it's something that he learned in high tech.

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He would start every morning with a meeting with all of the relevant ministers. They needed to report on their tasks. They would report their failures and then him as Prime Minister–the general approach that he had is, “It's okay to fail, just share it with us in order for everyone else to be able to help you to succeed.” This is something very different than what we usually see in politics. So people weren't afraid to say, “I didn't succeed in this and that,” and then everyone else would really think how they can step in and help them

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 Michael Eisenberg: 

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It’s like a stand up meeting at a startup company. I was fortunate to be the investor in one his startups, and so I sat around his board table, et cetera. He is a good manager  of people. I'm glad to hear that the acceptance of failure and let's just fix it all together has kind of extended from his time is at Sayota to his time as Prime Minister.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Yeah. And I think people in the beginning were shocked. I think he taught many people how to manage with failures, how to manage with struggles and how to be candid and open about it. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Would you like him to be Prime Minister again? 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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I think he'll be better than most other candidates and hopefully, I don't know. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Is that a low bar? It's like a low bar to get over. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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I think the bar is not very high. And I think we need to, we need to give some chance to new blood to come into the system and maybe see things differently.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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And so you worked for the Prime Minister Naftali Bennet, and you think there should be new blood in politics.

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You were in politics, but then you got out of politics and went to TikTok. What made you make the jump from the political side of being in politics to TikTok, and kind of representing, let’s call it, corporate interest vis-a-vis the government?

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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On a personal level, I wanted some time in the business sector, And I wanted to experience the business sector as well. But on a deeper level, when I was in the government,  we were always trying to find new ways to approach new audiences with messaging about COVID.

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For example, I’ll give you an interesting example, with the Haredim, 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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The ultra-Orthodox. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Yeah. So they don't watch TV. Basically most of them, they had a lack of trust in the government and we tried to find new ways to approach them. So, I don't know if our audience knows what happens in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods–you post posters, basically.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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What are called in Yiddish, “Pashkevilim”.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Right, Pashkevilim,

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Michael Eisenberg:

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These giant, generally white–but not always–posters with big black letters on them. They’re very informative. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Very informative, yes. Yeah. So we tried these Pashkevilim campaigns on billboards in Haredi, in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods.

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This is how we try to approach these audiences. So we tried different ways. And one of the things we tried was TikTok. It was a brand new–

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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That's not what the ultra Orthodox community uses. 

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 Barak Herscowitz: 

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No, no, these are–yeah, but you know, you would be surprised to know how many ultra Orthodox communities have two cell phones, some of them, so you would be surprised. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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You’re telling me. There's the kosher phone in the right pocket and the smartphone in the left pocket. Yeah. I know it well.

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 Barak Herscowitz: 

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Some of them are on TikTok. But yeah, we use TikTok to approach mostly younger audiences and also the Arab audience that heavily uses TikTok, to be honest.

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We learned it on the go. And I saw the huge impact that TikTok had. It was a very powerful tool for us as a government. And I basically, I pitched my position to TikTok. I told them that I personally saw firsthand the impact that TikTok has, how the government can use it, and I can  bring in the rest of the ministries to operate on TikTok. And the idea was, back then, it was seen by many, maybe still as a silly app for dancing cats and kids you know, stuff like that. And I told them that if we will bring onboard the government, the banks will come, the healthcare providers, the food industry, everyone will follow, because it will give the platform some sort of credibility.

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So that was my pitch basically. And I joined TikTok two weeks after I pitched it. I just joined the company.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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And what was the job exactly?

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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So my job was called a “Government and Public Sector Vertical Lead.” I was in charge of basically onboarding the government. I was in charge of making them open TikTok accounts, advertise on TikTok, be active on TikTok.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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How long were you at TikTok for?

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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A bit more than two years. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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A bit more than two years. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Yeah. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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And you onboarded the Israeli government to TikTok and many other good businesses. When did you resign from TikTok?

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 Barak Herscowitz: 

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I resigned in January, of this year, 2024, yeah, mid January. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Three months after October 7th or so. What caused you to resign from TikTok?

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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First, I must say that generally speaking, my two years there were great, were very positive and a great experience. And there are amazing people working in the Israeli office. So it was a good experience. And then October 7th broke, and we were, that day, that Saturday, we were all obviously as Israelis, we were all in shock and hid from rockets in shelters.

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So that was a very harsh day. But as a TikTok employee, there was something else. Because we saw that morning that TikTok and other platforms as well are being used by Hamas. So I don't know if many people know, but Hamas, they broadcasted on live their atrocities, which was crazy.

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And they mobilized some of their supporters to cross the border, to come into Israel, using those social media platforms. The Israeli team was very fast to ring all the bells, wake up. Remember very early in the morning Saturday. No one works in the European offices or in America, but we rang all the bells, and we made sure that everyone wakes up and gets into action.

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And Hamas-related accounts were blocked immediately that same day, so I was very proud of TikTok. Very proud of my workplace. But then right after that day, after things started to change and to shift–and it started with the government being blocked. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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The Israeli government. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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The Israeli government. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Your client. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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So it was my client, and they were completely blocked from advertising on TikTok, right on October, I think eighth. The reasons why they used ‘beyachad nenatzeach’ - “together we will win” slogans on their videos, and it was considered political by TikTok to use it. I thought that this decision, this policy decision wasn't fair. And I asked the Policy teams why, and then they would say that anything related to any conflict, any political conflict or any war, we try to get out of the platform, and especially in paid ads.

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So I communicated this to the government and, you know, the government didn't have much to do. And then later on, I think the following week, all of the videos for the hostage families that tried to raise awareness abroad to the hostage crisis, they were banned as well. And I was sent to talk with the hostage family forum and, you know, communicate this to them, that we don't allow any campaigns that are related to any war or any conflict.

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So it's not against you. It's not against Israel. It's not against the hostages. And I felt very comfortable communicating it, because I had an unwritten agreement in my head with TikTok that I communicate those messages, those policies to my clients, as long as it's being fairly and equally implemented on everyone. Makes sense, right?

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Yes, sometimes.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Sometimes. But then I saw that this wasn't the case. Then I saw that there were very heavily funded campaigns for Palestinians by, pro Palestinian groups or organizations, that showed very disturbing images of kids in the rubble in Gaza, testifying how much they're hungry and they're being bombarded all the time by the IDF.

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This ran on the platform smoothly. And then I asked the company, “How come?” I mean, I wasn't even against it. I said, “But if this is allowed, then campaigns for hostages obviously should be allowed.” 

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And I never got any real response. They would always say, “Yeah, we're going to check it. But for now, this is the policy.” And they didn't change it. So I felt to me, what I saw is a bias against Israel and antisemitic bias. And then later on, there was something also very interesting, a campaign by Birthright–

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Michael Eisenberg:

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Birthright’s the organization that helps Jewish kids, and young adults come to Israel for–it's basically a free trip–it’s an educational trip given by philanthropists.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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So they tried to promote a program for volunteering in Israel, mostly in agriculture, because many of the foreign workers just escaped the country.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Yeah, there were a lot of Thailandese killed and then taken hostage, for example, and Thailandese are the farm workers, some of the farm workers in Israel. And they were taken hostage or killed on October 7th. Some of them just left. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Right. And so, Taglit, Birthright tried to recruit volunteers to the programs here in Israel. And this was also banned by TikTok, because of two reasons. One is that many of them had the saying, “Am Yisrael Chai” on their shirts. “The people of Israel live.” Am Yisrael Chai.

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It's obviously not a political phrase. And the other–that the landing page that it led to said “In these hard times, we stand with the people of Israel.” And I saw other videos promoted on Tiktok that say, “In these hard times, we stand with the people of Palestine,” or “We will continue to send with the people of Palestine.”

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So I asked the company, “How come? Why are things that are allowed for Palestinian videos aren't allowed for Jews or for Israelis?” And obviously, for me, it was a very strong bias. And it wasn't only in the paid ads section, it was also in organic content we would receive, because Israel is such a small country and it's built on, there's a word that I don't know if it exists in English–”combina.” Basically, that everyone thinks that they can use someone– 

Michael Eisenberg: 

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They can fool the system.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Yeah. Fool the system.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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Make a deal to fool the system. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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If you know someone, you can fool the system. It’s a small country. So Israeli content creators, pro-Israeli content creators who had problems with TikTok–they would, they knew people at TikTok Israel in their offices. So they would call us all the time and tell us that they had problems. 

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Many of them were blocked on October 7th. And many of them, which I think is worse–they weren't blocked, but they were shadow-banned. Meaning they never received any notification that there is any problem with their content–but all of a sudden, they saw a huge drop in their reach, especially outside of israel.

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Meaning, the Israeli point of view couldn't reach audiences outside of Israel. And we know for a fact that there was a tsunami of anti-Israeli and antisemitic content on TikTok abroad. So something felt very fishy to me. Something felt like there is a very strong bias against Israel, both in the policies and in the way those policies are being implemented.

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And content moderation, I did write about it to company officials and I opened, you know, you work in high tech, you know how it works in big companies, you need to open a ticket and then make sure this ticket is being taken care of. And then you follow up in the system and it's very easy for those things to take forever.

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But I did it all in the traditional way, okay? With those tickets and everything, but nothing changed. And then the first night, around the first night of the hostage deal, when Israel released terrorists in order to get hostages back–

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Michael Eisenberg: 

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A few women and some old people back.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

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Yeah, the first time was only women and young girls, including, I think, Abigail Idan. 

So we were all in Israel, we were obviously very emotional about this night. 

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You know Michael, I never, never cry. Last time I cried was when my grandmother passed away. It was years ago. That night I cried, I was up basically, I cried for hours, and then someone told me to check something up on the internal system of the TikTok employees. It's called Lark, and I realized that there is an internal group called Palestinian Support.

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And I joined it, and I saw that there are TikTok employees supporting not the released hostages, but the released terrorists. Some of them exploded cars, some of them stabbed people on the streets in Jerusalem. And they were celebrating their release, and were so happy and emotional about the release of those Hamas terrorists and other terrorists.

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And then I started scrolling back through this group. And I saw that these employees also promote BDS, and supported the Houthis, and they celebrated when the Houthis attacked a lot with missiles, they celebrated and they were happy about it. And this was all on the internal  company platform.

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So I started to, you know, say, “Who are these employees?” And, you know, I'm going to be very cautious here because my lawyers, they always told me to be cautious. So not a hundred percent of them, but 99.5 percent of them were in Trust and Safety teams, meaning they were in charge of the censorship of TikTok.

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They decided what content goes on and what kind doesn't go on. And these are the people who celebrate Hamas, and the Houthis, and BDS. And I thought this was crazy. This was crazy. And I wrote an internal memo to the company, and my initial claim was that there is a bias in policy and bias in content moderation.

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And then I added this, screenshots and information about those internal groups, and that Trust and Safety employees who support terrorists and support BDS. And I also mentioned it’s a very hostile environment towards Jews on other TikTok sites. This is something that I haven't personally experienced because I work here in Israel. There aren't any anti Semites here in Israel, I hope so. 

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 Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

But in other offices, there were many, there were many incidents. 

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Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

I heard about Spain and Ireland were places that, you know. 

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Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

In Ireland, things are crazy, but also in London, and in France, and other places, there were Jewish employees reported that they came to work after October 7th and no one spoke to them, including their bosses.

‍

They were completely ignored by everyone, as non-existent. Or, other employees who received very disturbing anti-Semitic remarks.

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Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Such as? 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but, I'll give you one example, and I'll try to do it without too many details.

‍

One of them said that they had a team day. And they had some games and, you know, group games. And then one of them, she experienced very harsh remarks about Jews, and money, and being in control of the world, etcetera. And then she reported it to HR and the Ethics office. And she said–it's not something that I experienced, but this is something I saw on Lark, on an open Lark group–she claims that no one ever talked to her, and no one ever dealt with her reports.

‍

So I added these harsh feelings of Jewish employees to the internal memorandum that I wrote. And it was a very elaborated and detailed, long memo. And I sent it to the management of the company. And I was a bit, I don't know how to call it. It's chutzpah, Jewish chutzpah, whatever.

‍

But, I sent it to all of the C levels who report directly to the CEO and ethics office, GR, HR, PR teams in America and in Israel, and in Europe, and to my manager and all of that. All of the managers, up to the CEO–

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Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Up to China.

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Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

The CEO of TikTok is not in China. He's in  Singapore.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Mm-hmm. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

TikTok is owned by a Chinese company, but TikTok as a company, it splits between Singapore and the United States, London. 

‍

The reaction was crazy. The first reaction, I mean, I assumed, maybe I was naive, I thought that if I raised red flags to the company about employees who support terrorists, and they are in charge of the content moderation, and this content moderation is being infamous on all of the traditional media–is anti-Israeli and antisemitic–I assumed or hoped that they would say, “You know, these are hard accusations, Barak, and we're going to take it very, very seriously, and deal with it, and change it, and fix the problem.” No. The first reaction was, by some managers, wrote me, “Who else have seen this? Who else have you consulted with?”

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Who else have seen your letter?

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Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Yeah, who else have seen this letter? “Did you send it to anyone who's not mentioned in the letter?” They were panicked about it. And then later on, they sent a Jewish employee very, very senior. He approached me and he said, 

‍

“You know, I'm Jewish, too. I understand that we have a problem here in TikTok, and I feel very much like you. And this antisemitic wave in the world is very dangerous. Let's go over your memo together. Let's read it together and think together, how can we fix it? I can help.” Because he said that he can help, because he’s senior in the company, and I thought it was a very great offer.

‍

And we scheduled a meeting, and then halfway through the meeting, I realized that I'm basically under investigation. It's not really a meeting of “Let's fix things together.” It's more of, at this point, the memo was,they transferred it to other, you know, other people, other employees.

‍

So at this point, I think tens of people were exposed to the letter, 20, 30, 40. I don't know exactly how many–other groups, et cetera. And of course the CEO as well. And, he told me in this meeting that parts of this memo leaked to Fox News. At this point, I was very scared about it because I, you know, I plan to stay in TikTok for many years, and I was in a senior position there.

‍

It was a great job to be honest. 

‍

Yes. 

‍

But so I was afraid that they would think that I was the one who leaked it, but, they–it was very clear to me that they thought it leaked from somewhere in Europe for some reason. And then they would, he asked me if I have any friends in Europe, and the other European offices, who are my friends there, who do I talk to on a regular basis from European offices?

‍

And I told him, I think you’re wasting your time in the wrong place. I think the real problem is with employees who actively support the Houthis. Whoever, who supports the Houthis? That's crazy!

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

You’ve got these people on college campuses begging them to bomb another ship.

‍

 Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Yeah, now there's a chant.

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

Or stop pharmaceutical supplies to Europe. And to raise the cost of all products around the world and increase inflation. And support a terror organization that has done nothing for the West or anything else other than kill people.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Well, they were removed from the terror organization list. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

But they're back now.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Oh, they're back. Okay. But I think it's interesting you mentioned the campuses, because I think that there's a connection between what people see on TikTok  and later on, they chant on campus. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

No question. Just look at the Bin Laden letter, for example.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

TikTok generally speaking was very fast, very quick, you might say that it was quick in removing it, removing the trend. It took them two days. It's a very crucial two days to be honest, but you know, in such a big company, you can say that two days is fast enough to remove such a trend. But I think they only removed it because it was, it gained so much media coverage.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

And because by that point, tens of millions of people had already seen it or heard it or whatever. It was like–

‍

 Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

But what if it weren't covered by New York Times? 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

They would let it go on there forever.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: Maybe, you know, Jackson Hinkle. Have you heard the name? So Jackson Jackson Hinkle, if some of our listeners don't know, he's anti-Israel, but also anti-America and anti Ukraine and anti-everything  basically.

‍

 Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Well, he's not anti-Russia.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

He's not anti-Russian. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

He is not anti-communism. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

Right, exactly. But he's anti-everything Western, and anti-everything that makes sense. And I wrote another, a separate internal memorandum before that to the company about his content on TikTok. He was banned from most other platforms. 

‍

And he doesn't have a verified TikTok account, but his content is booming on TikTok. And I sent them links to videos with hundreds of thousands of views with very crazy accusations of the IDF bombing. You know, he says that the October 7th never happened, and it's the IDF bombed Israeli citizens.

‍

These videos, I checked a few days ago, these videos are still on TikTok. Bin Laden gained some media coverage by traditional media and that's why it was removed, but what other content is still on the platform?  

‍

So that's basically my story. And then in January, after a few more trials, I tried to ask them if anything is being done with my letter, if they're going to change anything. The answers that they gave me were ridiculous.

‍

They sent someone from Ethics office to talk to me, and she said, “We take it very very seriously, and we will take some actions as a company, but we will never be able to tell you what these actions are exactly.” So I told her, “I'm not expecting for you to tell me if a specific person with their name was fired,” because obviously it breaches their confidentiality, “But I do expect to understand if you change anything in the policy. How do you recruit trust and safety teams? How do you oversee their work? Is anything being done with employees who support terrorists on the internal platform?” They said that they will remove those messages on the internal  platform that support the Houthis and Hamas.

‍

And I told them, “The fact that it's on the platform is not a problem. The fact that these people are the censors of TikTok, this is a problem. This is a real problem.” 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Did they remove the messages? 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

They removed some of them, but you know, one thing that happened later on after I left is that they removed the Jews and the Israelis from those groups supporting Palestine, so they won't be able to screenshot and complain, and open other tickets in complaining about it.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Wow.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Yeah, that's what they removed.

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

How do you think Trust and Safety people were hired?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I don't know. And it's a big question, and they never answered it. I'm pretty sure that they didn't look actively for people who are antisemitic.

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

Okay. Yeah. 

‍

 Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

And I'm sure, I hope, and I assume that the CEO of TikTok and the C level-managers that directly report to him are not antisemitic, and not specifically against Israel. Maybe most of them,

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

Or pro-terrorists for that matter. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Or pro-terrorist. Maybe. But I thought that after they saw that there is a problem in their company, and they chose not to act upon it, it becomes a policy.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

I agree with that. So you resign in January. You finally decided–the fight you've been fighting and fighting. You're not making progress. You resign.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Yeah.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

In the background, and you and I know each other partially through this, right? I had done some research and other groups of people had done some research showing a lot of nefarious things that were going on on TikTok.

‍

And at some point, Congress, in the United States, decides to do something about this. And there you are sitting at home. And I can't remember who the member of Congress was right now, who quotes a letter that you wrote or a Tweet that you wrote.

‍

 Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

It was Senator Lindsey Graham. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

Senator Lindsey Graham.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

He basically grilled the CEO of TikTok in a Senate hearing for my resignation.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

And you resigned in this very public letter that you posted on Twitter. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Not exactly. I resigned. It was very interesting, because my Tweet was very vague. It was, “In these hard times when our existence as Jews is being under attack, people's priorities change. I quit TikTok. Am Yisrael Chai.” That was what I wrote. But then the media immediately connected it with my internal memorandum that had leaked way before. So it was clear to people–the reason I left was very clear by then.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Yeah. And so you stated very openly then, but I mean, I'll just say it, because–you said it was vague, but it was at least clear to me, that you decided to put your values ahead of your employment. Is that fair?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Yeah.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Okay. And you said at these times, meaning these are clarifying times. My values in the defense of my people standing for what's right, is more important than my earning this great living that I'm earning. Is that fair?

‍

 Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Fair.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

Fair. Okay. And Senator Lindsey Graham then, in a congressional hearing with Mr. Chu, who’s the CEO of TikTok in the U.S., then quotes a quote from your letter and you're sitting, I don't know where? 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I haven't watched it. I didn't watch it back in real time.

‍

 Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Yeah.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Someone tagged me on Twitter and I was shocked, to be honest. I was shocked. Because when I quit, when I posted on Twitter, I received numerous requests, from Congress, people and senators, to talk to them. And I refused, because back then, I was really afraid that TikTok would hunt me, would hunt me down and sue me. 

‍

 Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Did you get any threats?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

From TikTok? 

‍

Yeah.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

No, not really.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

From people around, anybody else threatening you?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

No, first I received over a hundred messages from TikTok employees supporting me, not only from Israel, but from other places as well. And they were very supportive until this day. I want to be cautious here, but I hear that some TikTok officials are trying to talk bad against me in some places, but I never received any threats.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Take it as a compliment. And so Senator Graham quotes you in a Senate hearing, your phone begins to blow up from people saying, “Hey, Senator Graham did this,” and then you subsequently wrote a bunch of pieces and did a couple of press interviews. What were you trying to get out about TikTok?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

You know, the first thing I wanted people to understand is, I saw a very, very clear and very radical bias against Israel and on the platform. And other people posted quantitative researches about those things.  I never studied this thing. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Just to state them very openly. So, for example, free Palestine versus pro-Israel was some, I forget, it was 50 to one or 60 to one. I can't remember the exact number. Or more than that to one. Anything having to do with the Uyghurs or free Tibet or whatever, it is not present on TikTok, but is present on Instagram.

‍

Various anti-Semitic lines, or pro-Hamas lines are like multiple hundreds to one, over what you find on Instagram or other social media platforms. And plus, there was also research to show that all sorts of content that got started in Malaysia and Indonesia, then jumped to the United States as part of the TikTok algorithm. Go ahead.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Basically, what they claim is that TikTok doesn't behave as a real social media platform. It behaves as a tool for propaganda. 

‍

 Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

And then just to be clear about the U.S. Law Section 230, which is supposed to say, okay, I'm not responsible if I'm a social media platform like Facebook or Instagram or TikTok, I'm not responsible for the content that's posted by users–but their algorithms are promoting certain content, which is changing public opinion, and they're still claiming section 230 protection.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

You know today, and this was part of my pitch when I talk to clients, TikTok is not a silly app. TikTok is a place where many Americans, many Europeans, and in Israel as well, go to consume their news, and it's very influential. So basically what I wanted to–

‍

 Michael Eisenberg:

‍

But do you think this was like intentional by TikTok, Chinese, to kind of change and control the minds of young Americans or young Westerners?

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

I don't have any evidence for this, but it makes sense. And then, as I said, once you realize that there is a very strong bias, and once you realize that you have employees in very sensitive positions, who actively influence the way things are portrayed in the media, on the platform, and you don't deal with it, I think it becomes a policy.

‍

And so either it was a policy or became a policy, but it is a policy. And what I wanted the world to know–because I did give interviews about it to the New York times and others, the Telegraph–that today it’s Israel, but tomorrow it can be anything. It can be any other subject. It can be any other interest that malicious or other entities have. The minds of young people in Western civilization, in Western countries, in European countries, in America, are being, manipulated. And I think that the free world is in a war that he doesn't even understand, that it loses, you know–maybe Israel is going to win over in Gaza with tanks and with missiles.

‍

Maybe, I don't know, but one war that we already lost is the war on the narrative, is the war on public perception. In the West within allied countries. And I think TikTok is being a tool for this war. And, we need to wake up and we need to understand this.

‍

 Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

So I assume you agree with the law passed in the United States that TikTok should be divested to US ownership.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Generally speaking, the answer is yes. You know, this is an internal American issue, but more important than this specific law, I think that after the study that you mentioned that showed that TikTok is not behaving naturally on some issues, Tiktok decided to block its data that allowed those studies.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Yeah, when, you know, Jeff Morris Jr. or Anthony Goldbloom started, you know, working on this data, it started to get some traction and then TikTok blocked it because–

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Crazy.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Why be transparent? When you're trying to be nefarious.

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

So I think the first thing that we need to demand from TikTok, especially from TikTok, because it's owned by some entities that we're not quite sure how they behave, is for full transparency on everything.

‍

Not the algorithm itself. But we need to understand what people in America see. Where is it coming from? Where are those videos being pushed from? In what volume is each hashtag is being promoted? These are things that we need to understand and we need to know.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

So I want to come back to what you said a minute ago.

‍

We're in three distinct wars right now. One is a kinetic wa–tanks, battlefield, wherever it is, the Houthis, missiles. The second is a narrative war. And the third is a values war on some level, right? It was kind of what Marxist/Leninist/Communist values against free world, Western values. And then this war of narratives.

‍

These are asymmetric wars right now, right? Because TikTok, for example, doesn't play by the same rules that Instagram plays by. And the Chinese won't play by the same rules the Americans play by. Neither in narratives, nor in values. And TikTok is like an education or mind control mechanism. Once you control the mind, you don't need to run on the battlefield, so to speak. How do you win a war like this? You like, had the inside seat. You were in the Prime Minister's office. You then went to the TikTok side. How do you win this war?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

First, I think we need to understand that we need to win this war. I posted something on X today about it. And people said, you know, “This is a war we can't really win. When you see photos from Gaza of babies in the rubble, we can't win this war.” 

‍

I say we can, we must win this war. We don't have any choice. We need to win this war. Eventually not us as Israel, specifically us as, but as the democratic countries, the democratic world, we don't have much of a choice. 

‍

In the defense, first, we need much more clear and vigorous and yes, smart regulation on social media and on campuses as well, because we know that money is being transferred to universities from some countries that are not very friendly to the notion of democracy.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

So what would be the most effective way to win this war on the narratives and the values in social media?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I think that we need to first realize what is our story. Okay, what is our true story that we want to convey out? Because the other side, they have very good stories to tell, okay? They have stories of small, weak entities, like in Gaza, the Palestinian people, for example, is very weak, is very small. It's against big America, and the huge amount of power that Israel has, and its colonialism.

‍

This is a story they tell. Okay, it's a story that is compelling people by the story. It's a very good story. We need to tell a whole different story and which i think is true– 

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

Tell it to me. What’s that story? 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

If we talk about Israel specifically, the story is that we are a small nation, inside a very hostile, very strong world around us, very wealthy entities that are anti-democratic values, anti-LGBT, and women’s rights, etc. inside a very hostile, very strong world around us, etc. And they try to extinct this tiny island of democratic sanity in this place. I think we need to reverse it. Israel and America, and democracy is currently under attack from malicious powers that want to harm personal freedoms.

‍

I think that many people in those campuses don't even understand that they're being manipulated, and people don't like to be manipulated. And to understand that they're being lied to, with complete lies. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

How would you wake them up? 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

It's a long battle, but we need to fight it. First, speaking their own language in what interests them, what they care about, what I care about as well, by the way, because I'm a gay liberal, a person who lives in Tel Aviv, enjoying the good life of Tel Aviv. Hey, I care about LGBT rights. I care about personal liberties. I care about democracy. We need to speak in this language to address these issues and these concerns, and show them that Hamas and its allies are not on the good side. And not on their side.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Yes, that's for sure. Hamas, Iran or China. Who's most dangerous for Israel?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I don't know. I think that Iran is more obsessed with Israel specifically. So it's more scary. I don't think that China specifically has an obsession towards Israel. I think we need to be very cautious about this coalition that is being formed with them and with Russia. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Yeah, Russian, of course. I asked Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, former Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, what question I should ask you. And he said, ask him, “What are the biggest mistakes you've made?” 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Me?

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

That's classic Prime Minister Bennett, by the way. I remember this from when he was a CEO.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Hmm.

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

What are the biggest mistakes you've made?

‍

 Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I've done too many. So, where to start? 

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

He’d insist on a specific one.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I'll give you two. Two good ones. Okay. One is, for many years, I worked with politicians like Naftali Bennett and others. I felt like in some places I knew the right answer, but I didn't insist on  it because I was, I felt that I'm not big enough around them and I don't have– 

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

The gravitas, or the presence or the confidence– 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Yeah, gravitas. And eventually I think I should have been more confident about what I feel and what my gut's telling me.

‍

The second thing, which I think is more interesting around TikTok and this world is that, I think I was too hesitant before I left TikTok. And, even though some would say that I had the guts to leave TikTok and interview about it, I should have done it earlier. I should have done it bigger because, when I left TikTok and when I was ready to speak about the bias, I think the world already moved on from being on the side of Israel. And I think, timing is everything in life, and probably in a better timing, I think it would have drawn much more attention and make more impact.

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

Wow. Wow. I think, by the way, there's a general lesson that–I've admired you for standing up for your values and taking hard decisions. But I think that self-reflection point that I could have done it earlier, maybe change the tide is, you know, is remarkable. 

‍

When Elon Musk was here in Israel and people were talking to him about curbing some of the anti-semitism on X, he made the point, and I then echoed it in a Tweet–I wrote it in Hebrew–which ended up I think becoming the most read Hebrew Tweet ever, because Elon retweeted it with a verse from Proverbs, verse from from Mishlei–and his approach on X is what I would call radical free speech. They ban almost nobody there, but the algorithm is also not tipped like TikTok’s was to kind of suppress pro-Israel and promote pro-Hamas or promote pro-China.

‍

How do you think about the X view of free speech, given what you said to me earlier about what kind of spreads on these platforms? I argue that in the land of social media, the X model is the best one. But how do you think about it kind of objectively?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

I first, I tend more towards the X model because I'm very enthusiastic about free speech.

‍

I think it's crucial for democratic societies, but two things. One, it has to be on both sides. Okay. Unlike on TikTok, what I saw on TikTok is that they did censor some things, but only for one side. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Agreed.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

So as long as it's fair, it's one major thing. And the other thing is that on X, there are still some things that I would remove.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Jackson Hinkle?

‍

Not Jackson Hinkle, because Jackson Hinkle, he can lie. And then Musk added these community notes that he can–

‍

 Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

I think that's a great architecture, for it's worth. What they did to Raisi when he died, you know, and the BBC called him like, you know, someone like, “people can think of him as a decent guy.” My God, right. And the Community Notes flamed BBC. God bless Community Notes. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

I think it's brilliant. But some things are much more hateful and some things are much more violent. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Yeah. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

And when it comes to things that spark violence, I think, there should be some moderation. So if there is China on the one hand with a very strict censorship, and Elon Musk on the other hand, it's somewhere–I lean towards Elon Musk, but I think he can be, it can be at 10 percent less.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Where do you trust the news more, BBC or X? 

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

X is not X. Because X is people on X, right? 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Right. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

I don't trust the BBC because I know what they report. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Right. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

But I think we need to learn, and teach our children other people to consume from various sources. If you consume from various sources, and you know that this one leans towards one side and the other one leans towards the other side, then you can have a more broad picture of the world.

‍

It's healthy. Never rely only on BBC or never rely only on Jackson Hinkle, and never rely on the other side as well.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

What do you do when you're not working in your free time, and now you're unemployed?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

For some reason, I'm much more occupied than before. I don't know why, but I–

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

We like to say that at some of these big companies, there's like silent unemployment, but I don't think that was the case with you.

‍

Barak Herscowitz:

‍

First, I like to write. I like to express myself. And recently I'm working on a new project. I want to take the last part of our conversation about the West losing a fight it doesn't even know it fights, and bring it to more audiences. And I'm working on a new lecture.

‍

Michael Eisenberg:

‍

 Good for you.

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

And I want to make it a hobby and a mission.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

I want to ask you one last question because I think the last five months have been  instructive. And I know you've been through ups and downs, and people attacked you. And, you know, there was time to be concerned. And there was an incredible time of being brave. And you've been very, kind of, I would say, raw and open during this time. What makes you vulnerable?

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

To be honest, not much nowadays. I think when you're very confident in what you do, then you're less vulnerable. One thing that I can tell you, I visited Kfar Aza, one of the villages that were destroyed by Hamas on the raid. Since then, every time I hear about those stories from October 7th, it harms my ability to move in this day. 

‍

And, to be honest, this experience with TikTok, it made me so much stronger and more confident, because it's the first time that I actually paid a price for something that I truly believe in.

‍

And I paid a heavy price, I must say, a very heavy price. 

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

I know you did. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

And I lost some friendships. I had a great salary, everything. But doing this action, taking this action. When you know you're going to pay the prices, and it scares you to death. And you don't know if they're going to sue you, in America, and it's scary, but you do it anyway–I think it's strengthened me. It's strengthened me dramatically.

‍

Michael Eisenberg: 

‍

Amazing. You can learn more and read more about Barak on X, formerly Twitter, @Barakher that's spelled B A R A K H E R. Barak, thank you. That was great. 

‍

Barak Herscowitz: 

‍

Thank you.

‍